justin matthews

[justin matthews]

hello to all groupc + a members
it has come to my attention that the biante series is looking to extend their eligibilty period beyond 1973 , into the croup c era.
i think we need to discuss this as an association and get some feed back to cams.
i feel it will dilute our series and cause confusion especially if certian liveries are copied.
talk to any other members you know and lets see what if anything can be done.
thanks
justin matthews

[Bill Cutler]

Hi Justin

We (Historic Commission) have discussed this briefly over the Sandown weekend. The HC is very concerned about the possibility that one of the "next generation" Biante cars might appear in a Historic livery.

It's my view that genuine Grp C Historic cars hold the "intellectual property" to period liveries and there may even be copyright issues. We certainly don't want new cars to be "passing off" as something that they are not.

I think that the Grp C Association could write a formal letter to both the AHMSC (Historic Commission) and the AMRC (Motor race commission) expressing the association's concerns about this. The AMRC is the body responsible for approving changes to Biante's sporting regs.

We also need to talk to Biante directly - I'll contact Rowan and/or Chris Stillwell.

I would be very happy to talk with you in more detail about this - 0407337600

Bill Cutler

[David Paterson]

Justin & Bill, i suggest you talk with the AHTCA about this.

david.paterson@apclogistics.com.au

[Rowan Harman]

Hi All,

I am not aware of any "proposed" BTCM car running in a livery connected with Group C and furthermore, it would not get past the Board!!! This is "scare-mongering".

All cars have to adhere to BTCM Tech Regs.

A case in point would be the LH Torana SL/R 5000. It would be an SL/R 5000, not an L34! XA and XB Hardtops etc.

The majority of the "new cars" will be for the proposed Group 3 (up to 2.5 Lt), being Escorts, Celica's, Datsuns etc.

Rowan.

[David Towe]

But if an SLR is painted the same as the genuine L34 couldn't this create some confusion? And there are under 2.5 litre cars in Group C and A as well don't forget.

[Rowan Harman]

But if an SLR is painted the same as the genuine L34 couldn't this create some confusion? And there are under 2.5 litre cars in Group C and A as well don't forget.

No, not at all. They would be running in BTCM, not Historics.

There are people shaking their fist at BTCM cars for no reason. BTCM are not "Historic Cars" just as 99.9% of Group N are not "Historic Cars". The difference is that Group N have Historic Log Books, BTCM have their own CAMS Log Books just the same as "Improved Production", Australia wide, have their own log books but they don't seem to cop the same negativity when they allow LH/LX Torana's (with flares) and Datsun and Toyota and Mazda and Escort. And what about the Central Muscle Cars in NZ???

Group C and A are a fully-fleged Historic Class, don't be afraid!

[Fast Eddie]

If there are concerns about Biante moving into the Group C period, is another approach to put together a national Group C & A series for genuine cars instead?

Perhaps 30 cars in a 6 race series that included 2 x V8 rounds (non street circuits), 2 x Shannons National rounds, MCM and Sandown/Tasman Revival?

Come up with an entry matrix of makes/models to provide a representative mix of cars.

Look to subsidise participation cost through a series sponsor.

Regs would remain as per historic rules with perhaps some parity measures available to keep the field close. Address the tobacco advertising issue by vinyl blockouts.

Get a couple of the period drivers for guest drives in their original cars from round to round and put the hard word on Chris to turn up with a couple of their cars in the tent to further enhance spectator appeal.

Compile the calendar so that entrants could still support state level historic events.

A fairly simplified overview, but hopefully an interesting discussion topic nevertheless.

Regards

Ed

[David Towe]

Great idea in theory Ed, but not everyone can or will (for a variety of reasons) do 6 rounds and not everyone can or will travel interstate (for a variety of reasons) for a few meetings per year.
A series sponsor would be nice!!!:cool:
Remove the tobacco advertising and to a degree you remove the identity of the car, did you see the McLarens in F1 without the Marlboro sponsorship??

[Fast Eddie]

Great idea in theory Ed, but not everyone can or will (for a variety of reasons) do 6 rounds and not everyone can or will travel interstate (for a variety of reasons) for a few meetings per year.
A series sponsor would be nice!!!:cool:
Remove the tobacco advertising and to a degree you remove the identity of the car, did you see the McLarens in F1 without the Marlboro sponsorship??



Thanks for your comments. My (constructive) responses and questions are as follows:

The concept doesn't rely on everyone participating.

I was working on the basis that you sign up 30 cars to ensure a 20 car grid at each round. Owners sign a series agreement with an upfront bond to commit to the event calendar, and are charged against that bond if they miss rounds.

Let's assume that you can get a series sponsor whose financial contribution would cover the pit marquees, subsidise transport costs etc, so entrant costs were no more than the interstate rounds that we go to now.

Is it realistic to think that there are 30 Group C & A cars and drivers who are motivated and have the budget to run their cars at 6 national level race meets per year?


The requirement to cover up tobacco advertising I presume is not negotiable at the type of events under discussion. Sure they don't look quite right, but I don't think anyone will have any problem identifying, say, a red/white and black Torana hatch with a 25 on the door...

Would owners be prepared to cover up their tobacco advertising to race at say Bathurst as a feature race on the 1000 event?

Regards
Ed

[Rod W]

ED,
We are not V8 supercar, People do the rounds they can afford as not all have $$$$$$$ to burn like some, Alot of people who race these cars still work for a living so we can race our cigi sponsored cars, do you think Paul would run his hatch in plain colours??

[Fast Eddie]

ED,
We are not V8 supercar, People do the rounds they can afford as not all have $$$$$$$ to burn like some, Alot of people who race these cars still work for a living so we can race our cigi sponsored cars, do you think Paul would run his hatch in plain colours??

Arjay,

I work for a living too, so my interest in a series would be based around a cost effective opportunity. Perhaps winding it back to four events would be better?

I don't know what Paul, or for that matter what David or all the other affected owners would think about covering up their tobacco logos, I respectfully suggest only they would know.

I raised the issue on the basis that I assumed that at a V8 round (note that I only nominated 2 for the example) tobacco advertising would be a no-go. It appeared to be fine at MCM, and may also be at the other suggested rounds? How long for, is another matter, and not one that is relevant to debate here.

Relating the situation back to my "STP" car, if I got a call tomorrow from Charles at FoSC and it was along the lines of...

"Ed, we've just picked up a FoSC sponsor for Bathurst next Easter. The sponsor is a local fuel and oil additive company, and they have a problem with your STP logo. Would you mind covering it for this particular meeting?"

... it wouldn't be a problem for me.

I welcome your comments and perceptions, but perhaps relating them to you and your car would be more constructive.

Regards

Ed

[Lindsay]

I believe Justins origional thought was to not allowing the undermining of our "genuine" cars histotic signifigance, which I believe Rowan and Bill have addressed to a degree.

The second point raised in the thread is another matter all together.
Some of our members can only aford the time and money to do a couple of events a year. Should they be precluded because they haven't registered to do the series? There are few that travel now because of the cost so we donr want to scare anyone of from a one off inter state race.
This is historics and it's supposed to be fun when you aren't hitting walls so if it aint broke, why do we need to fix it.

I think If you need to race a national series historics are not the place to do it.

If you have an alternate point of view, just send the hate mail to Imfixinabenttorana.com

Lindsay

[Fast Eddie]

I believe Justins origional thought was to not allowing the undermining of our "genuine" cars histotic signifigance, which I believe Rowan and Bill have addressed to a degree.

The second point raised in the thread is another matter all together.
Some of our members can only aford the time and money to do a couple of events a year. Should they be precluded because they haven't registered to do the series? There are few that travel now because of the cost so we donr want to scare anyone of from a one off inter state race.
This is historics and it's supposed to be fun when you aren't hitting walls so if it aint broke, why do we need to fix it.

I think If you need to race a national series historics are not the place to do it.

If you have an alternate point of view, just send the hate mail to Imfixinabenttorana.com

Lindsay

Lindsay,

No hate mail required. Hopefully I can explain my point more clearly.

Justin says, "the Biante series is looking to extend their eligibility period beyond 1973... I feel it will dilute our series...lets see what if anything can be done"

Historic significance of a bonafide Group C & A car cannot be challenged by a Biante car even if represented in the same livery. One is the real thing, the other is a replica.

However diluting our existing series, is potentially a very real concern. What would the motivation be to run a real Group C car, if you could build an equivalent model and race it in Biante instead? Wouldn't that have a negative affect on Group C and A grids as they end up in museums and collections?

I simply proposed an idea, as something that could be done, that may prevent the extension of the elegibility date of Biante by stamping Group C & A authority on that period.

Simply put, if there was a collective of Group C & A vehicles that could turn up occassionally as a feature race category at major events that covered the period that Biante may or may not be looking to extend into, then the Group C & A movement would have the ability to say to CAMS, "No, that's our turf".

You make the point that "if you need to race a national series, historics are not the place to do it". I find this perplexing on the basis that to compete in the '09 Group C & A Championship series, I would have had to travel to Phillip Island, Morgan Park, Wakefield and Sandown, assuming my home track is Eastern Creek. What do you see being the difference?

The aim is not to preclude or exclude owners who could not commit to a full series. I'm confident that in the details, provision could be made for reliable, well presented cars that made the 130% cut off to be able to join the grids up to maximum track density on a one off basis.

Taking it a step further the series would ideally dovetail into the existing calendar so that the historic rounds were not robbed of competitors.

I hope that gives a broader view of the thinking, and the suggestion.

Regards

Ed

[Rod W]

Ed,
As it is the V8 supercars have invited us to some of there major events ie: Oran Park Grand finale, What a hoot and we were allowed our cigi sponsor because that is the way they ran,
As a team last year we contested 5 rounds and attended 6, 4 of these rounds were interstate,
The cost to do this would have been huge, As I only Donate my time to support my Brothers passion he must close his buisness every time,
We very rarely see some Sydney people,only justin and Bob and co come down as they support group C & A racing,
Let Biante be Biante and stay away from our cars and colours

[Fast Eddie]

Ed,
As it is the V8 supercars have invited us to some of there major events ie: Oran Park Grand finale, What a hoot and we were allowed our cigi sponsor because that is the way they ran...

I agree, the Group C & A cars at Oran Park last year were fantastic. That was my first opportunity to watch Group C & A at the track. Spectators loved it, the commentator loved it, and being a competitor in another category at the time, I wished I had that level of support and interest in my races.

Ed,
As a team last year we contested 5 rounds and attended 6, 4 of these rounds were interstate,
The cost to do this would have been huge, As I only Donate my time to support my Brothers passion he must close his buisness every time,


I appreciate that costs of competing are high, and then there are hidden costs such as shutting a business etc that you mention.

I presume the participation numbers from the past 12 months reflect the fact that Group C & A competitors choose to spend their budgets supporting the feature races where the number of entrants will be higher.

Oran Park V8 Round, Dec '08 36 entries

Phillip Island VHRR Mar '09 29 entries

Eastern Ck HSRCA May '09 10 entries

Oran Park HSRCA Jun '09 13 entries

Morgan Park HRCC Jul '09 11 entries ( + 2 x Group U)

Eastern Ck MCM Sep '09 46 entries

Sandown VHRR Nov '09 18 entries

Eastern Ck Nov '09 15 entries (estimated - based on HSRCA website)

Based on the above, it would appear the Group C & A community readily support feature events, but not so much the state historic rounds, despite the fact that we are a "historic category"

As such, is the concept of focussing a series on feature race events being a combination of V8, Shannons and major historics such a bad idea if it can be established in such away that it:

a) Remains affordable
b) Can guarantee the event promoters a minimum grid (ie the 30 registered participants suggested elsewhere)
c) Has no barrier to entry for one off competitors
d) Maintains Group C & A as the dominant category for touring cars in the 74-92 period

Ed,
Let Biante be Biante and stay away from our cars and colours

All well and good, but will that be enough?

I envisage that there are plenty of early model Improved Production cars out there that could morph into Biante cars that cover the Group C period at the drop of a hat.

If we don't want that space filled by somebody else, we need to fill it ourselves.

Regards

Ed

[Bender]

I envisage that there are plenty of early model Improved Production cars out there that could morph into Biante cars that cover the Group C period at the drop of a hat.



I heard they don't want any of the Rotary Mazda's from the Group C period anyway?

[Rod W]

Ed,
I do here what you are saying, For some reason NSW & Qld have always struggled to retain numbers,
MCM is a huge carnival of our types of cars and is promoted this way, Sandown and phillip island are promoted very well as big historic events and attracts people world wide,
NSW & Qld need to start promoting and get behind the historics and create a carnival not just a race meeting then owners will start to bring out cars more often, We try and do as much as we can in travelling to interstate but some of the rounds also clash with other car club meetings ( A9X Nationals in SA etc) The club does run a national series which we would love to follow but shutting down our buisnesses for over a week and taking time off work stretches the budgets even further,
You have great ideas but as a non pro sport it would be hard to have people commit to, as for us we have a bent roadways hatch that needs some TLC thanks to oil on the track but thats Motorsport at its cruelest, a flag would have been nice hey Bill,

Cheers
Arjay

[Bill Cutler]

Yeah, a "slippery" flag would have been nice - I have addressed this with the Chief flag marshall....

With regard to the "national Series" concept, there are lots of hurdles, including the Category management agreement that Biante has with CAMS, that actually specifically precludes other categories copying biante, historic cars included. This issue recently affected the Grp N guys.

I would really like to see the NSW promopters - HSRCA take note - just invite Grp C/A to one meeting at EC per year, several months prior to MCM, and promote the event really well, rather than getting small fields at 2 or 3 meetings a year - this has already been pointed out. As we are fundamentally Historic cars, I reckon we should keep supporting the Historic meetings first and foremost...

The solution with Biante is to suggest that they do not present "new" '73 or
'74 cars in existing period liveries.

Bill

[Lindsay]

Bill,
I think Rowan is all over the livery thing already and is quite mindfull of the obvious conflict.
Keep in mind that Biantie dont have to run any specific livery and with their TV coverage any ciggy colours would be a no no.

Cheers

Lindsay

PS You dont know if that marshal is any good with a panel hammer

[David Towe]

any ciggy colours would be a no no.



Actually the colours wouldn't be a no no, it is only the words that would be.
Just out of curiosity may I ask those of you lucky enough to own genuine cars, how would you feel if a Biante car suddenly showed up in your colours with different words? Or your colours with the same words on it? I'm thinking the of cars with distinctive colour schemes such as the Phillips Toranas or the Schweppes Commodores or the Army Falcon etc?

[Chris Bowden]

Actually the colours wouldn't be a no no, it is only the words that would be.
Just out of curiosity may I ask those of you lucky enough to own genuine cars, how would you feel if a Biante car suddenly showed up in your colours with different words? Or your colours with the same words on it? I'm thinking the of cars with distinctive colour schemes such as the Phillips Toranas or the Schweppes Commodores or the Army Falcon etc?

You eventually get used to it :)

With the exception of cars that are dead and gone, I'm not a fan of replica's. But as its reality and you can't stop people, I don't mind it, until you get a few too many people asking you which is the real car :confused: (HINT its the one without the sunroof mate.)

Biante / Gp N has worked as a series due to scarcity of the original Improved Production cars. There are quite a few Gp C cars about and more still tucked away. Assuming that someone with a good budget has 1/2 a brain and they were planning to spend the big $$$$$$ needed to do well in such a series, wouldn't you try to track down the real deal? I think they may have an issue here.

I agree with the above sentiments of QLD needing a better act, that's what the Lakeside Classic is going to be!

[TerryO]

it would seem to me, that a few issues have been missed in this discussion, and as the owner of 2 GpA cars, I have a few ideas of my own......

The Biante series is clearly popular with both spectators & competitors. those competitors most likely never dreamed of owning a real car, especially one of the "big-bangers" that seem to predominate. The organsiers have done a fantastic job of getting their series exposure. We (GpC & A owners/association) should learn from that.

I would be horrified to see any car competing in livery that emulated a genuine log-booked C&A car. perhaps therfore, that is an issue that could be "stopped", if indeed it is being proposed.

many of our cars are currently log-booked with a pre-set signage. I don't think its appropriate to randomly alter this. can someone comment on the "legality" of this?

we need to lobby CAMS through State Council & the Historic commission if we either want to get change, or stop some change. Who are the CAMS reps to State council and what are they doing?

Do we have an active member on the Historic commission that is representing Association views and interests?

It would seem that C&A owners are happy to support "feature" racing at big events, but are unwilling to support the State Historic series to the same extent. Whilst there are now plenty of cars to fill a mixed grid, it seems that there are only a few 'regulars" who can afford the time & $ to travel widely, then a pile of others (like me), who can only afford a few meetings/year . Therfore, any "series" needs to be short, even if its financially supported.

There is a real risk, that if C&A don't find a sensible position, we might lose the opportunity to be a draw-card at some really big meetings in the future,in favour of Biante style cars.

For these really big meetings, where having the genuine car is the "big deal", then owners should be financially supported by the event promoters. A lot more work needs to be done to find a naming rights" style sponsor for a few big C&A events

[Rod W]

Terry,
One must remember that it does cost the biante boys a bit to race there series in sanctioning fees, Like v8 supercars, it looks galomous from the out side but can be very costly on the inside, Obtaining a series sponsor would be great but they who spend there money want some in return,
Terry,
As an owner of cars please just keep bringing your cars to the race meetings as you can afford and the fans will keep on watching them,You must remember people love our cars as much as we do and the racing we can produce out of these old girls is fantastic, these are race cars not pieces of sheet metal fixed to a fully engineered chassie,
Let Group C & A cars be, Every body would like to own one but only some can, Be happy and race them like they use to

Cheers
Arjay

[David Towe]

Is it a case of not supporting the smaller state level meetings because your cars are bigger than the run of the mill historic meetings and are worth their place at the likes of the Phillip Island Classic, Muscle Car Masters, AGP F1 (if plans go ahead properly), Sandown and what Lakeside will probably become ie. the biggest historic meeting in QLD. That makes 5 pretty good meetings of a certain stature and would probably be more enticing than an HSRCA meeting at Wakefield Park or an HRCC meeting at Morgan Park?
A series sponsor would surely be more interested and get more value for their $$ from you guys running at the larger meetings and that's surely where any "Championship" should also be centred?
I paid to go to the recent meeting at ECR to see 12 or 13 cars and it cost me $25 to get in, Muscle Car with 48 cars was much better value for my money.

[Bill Cutler]

I think there is pretty general agreement that most C&A owners would prefer to race at the meetings you suggest - P.I., MCM, Sandown, etc, and the calendar as drawn up for next year reflects this.

I dont think that a small grid of 10 - 12 cars at an HSRCA state level race meeting does anyone any favours, and HSRCA are starting to recognise that with the way they are going to structure meetings next year.

To Terry: Do we have an active member on the Historic commission that is representing Association views and interests?
Ah, that would be me... so don't hesitate to contact me with any issues...

Bill

[TerryO]

Bill, I'm not sure how the commission really functions but assume it reports back to the main CAMS board and circumvents State Council (the level I was involved in for some years).

it was my experience, that the only way to get any sort of change implemented was via State Council lobbying and passing motions. even then, that occasionally seemed to fall on deaf ears. However, pressure from within is the only way in any sort of club. yelling from the outside never achieves anything.

I don't see your name on the C&A committee list so how are you getting you "running instructions" to represent the Associations' views, and what exactly are they (WRT the historic commission). When Frank Binding attended a Qld meeting about 6 months ago, this subject got a little bit of discussion, but there was no clear outcome that I recall

From the various postings, its still not clear, what , if any threat, is being posed by the Biante series to C&A cars/owners/racing, so I guess, its business as usual

[Bill Cutler]

Thanks Terry

You're right about the Historic Commission, in that alot of the big picture items do go to the CAMS Board for approval etc, eligibility issues are looked after by the two eligibilty committees, and most other issues are dealt with directly by the Historic department (Rebecca & Jo)

You're also right in that the State Councils really are not that useful for us (Historics) as we are a more national activity than what they are dealing with, but occasionally it's useful to lobby them about things..

I am a member of Grp C assn, MGCC, HTCAV, and VHRR, so I have my ear pretty close to the ground, and so far I have been well advised by Frank, Barry, etc regarding Grp C association views. I hope that Justin keeps up this communication, whether formally or just by a phone call... As the Touring Car "rep" on the commission, this is really my main focus...

As for Biante, we are well aware of the issues and concerns.

Cheers

Bill

[Rowan Harman]

Actually the colours wouldn't be a no no, it is only the words that would be.
Just out of curiosity may I ask those of you lucky enough to own genuine cars, how would you feel if a Biante car suddenly showed up in your colours with different words? Or your colours with the same words on it? I'm thinking the of cars with distinctive colour schemes such as the Phillips Toranas or the Schweppes Commodores or the Army Falcon etc?

I can assure all C & A owners and fans that Touring Car Masters (TCM) will not allow any TCM car to be presented in a livery same or similar to a C & A car from the period. We cannot however stop a car being presented in a "standard" colour for the car of the period or standard striping/blackouts but if we do have a Celica in yellow, it won't be allowed to have the "Rising Sun" on the roof!!!

TCM can give this assurance.

We do have 1969 Mustang's that are Red with BOSS stripes and XY Falcons that are Red, one will even run # 63, but these cars were never intended to be passed off as the real cars that raced in that particular period.

I must admit that I was suprised to see the CMC "Chickadee" VK at MCM and more than a few people, that I thought would have known better, commented that it was a shame that such an iconic car was racing with the New Zealand series so I can fully appreciate the concerns of the C & A Group where confusion could raise its head. It won't happen here with TCM.

CCR

[justin matthews]

well happy new year guys
looks like the thread has created the disscussion we wanted.
yes none of us want to see copies racing and this is our main focus.
the biante series is a very well run and promoted series and to do that costs vast sums of money, as do the cars. these are modern racing machines with a old body over the top.
the association is going to make representations to cams and the commision to put forward our concerns and limit as many problems as possible.
the issue is that the biante series is not an historic series and is therefore not limited to its historic roots. bill cutler is our man on the inside and has all of our best interests at heart .
to answer the idea of a national series for group a+c , sounds nice but the costs are prohibitive when you cannot offset it with sponsorship. this is apart from the fact that 99% of our members are in the sport for fun and believe me doing a national series wears you down physically ,mentally and financially.
thats what the biante series is for! just trying to get our old clunkers to the track every 3 months is hard.
well i,m off to drive my three nephews to queensland and back ( have me commited to an asylum anytime you want )
keep well and i.ll see you all at phillip island.
justin.

[Rowan Harman]

well happy new year guys
looks like the thread has created the disscussion we wanted.
yes none of us want to see copies racing and this is our main focus.
the biante series is a very well run and promoted series and to do that costs vast sums of money, as do the cars. these are modern racing machines with a old body over the top.
the association is going to make representations to cams and the commision to put forward our concerns and limit as many problems as possible.
the issue is that the biante series is not an historic series and is therefore not limited to its historic roots. bill cutler is our man on the inside and has all of our best interests at heart .
to answer the idea of a national series for group a+c , sounds nice but the costs are prohibitive when you cannot offset it with sponsorship. this is apart from the fact that 99% of our members are in the sport for fun and believe me doing a national series wears you down physically ,mentally and financially.
thats what the biante series is for! just trying to get our old clunkers to the track every 3 months is hard.
well i,m off to drive my three nephews to queensland and back ( have me commited to an asylum anytime you want )
keep well and i.ll see you all at phillip island.
justin.


Justin,

As per this forum, please keep the discussion flowing before bounding off to any CAMS Commissions. Remember, a race track is a straight line debated by a Committee!!!