Historic Sandown 2010

[Bill Cutler]

Folks, as you know this year is the 50th anniversary of the ATCC, and at Sandown this year we are giving the meeting a definite Touring Car flavour. We are hoping for bumper fields for all the Touring Car grids.

To recreate some of the action of the "Hang Ten" and "Castrol" era, we are throwing around ideas for Grp C/A, such as a compulsory pit stop during one of the races.

The idea would be to have a normal start, then open the pits between say lap 3 and 7 of a 10 lap race.

Each car would need to come into the pits (once) and do one of the following:
a) lift up the car on the air jacks, down again, then go (does everyone have functioning air jack systems, bottles, air lines etc ???)
b) open the bonnet, close it, and go
c) remove a velcro "sash" from a side window
d) any other suggestions...?

I dont think removing wheels etc is a good idea due to time/safety/equipment considerations, but some sort of activity during the "pit stop" would be good.

I would be pleased to get some thoughts

Thanks

Bill

[Fast Eddie]

Bill,

How about a 30min mini enduro race with a compulsory drive through and 60 sec hold?

Regards

Ed

[Rod Markland]

Bill I think that 10 laps is too short a race for a pit stop I believe that you would need at least 15 laps and possiably more. Also opening the bonnet is a bit risky how about a velcro sash in the boot.

[David Towe]

60 sec hold is not a good idea with a hot car being stationary that long.

A sash is very easily removed and would hardly require the car to stop whilst this is done. If the idea is to stop the car and bring in some element of skill and activity, why not have the sash relocated from the front of the car and fitted to the rear of the car (activity) in the same pit stop? If a car returns to the pits without the sash at the end of the race it is DSQd (skill). Remove from the front and fit to the rear gets crew away from the car as it makes its' way back out onto the track lessening the chances of running someone over. Fit the sash on the front bumper off centre towards the pit garage side of the car meaning the repositioning crew member will go that side and stay away from passing traffic in pit lane. This is also fair on those of us without air jacks.

Isn't it funny! Our cars were built to do 1000 kms and we have been dished up such short races that we now consider 30 mins to be a "mini enduro". I know you'd like more laps and are more than capable of doing it, I'm not having a go at you Ed, just making an observation. The longer the race the more I like it.

[Bill Cutler]

These are great comments guys, thanks.

Scheduling a 25 - 30 min (20 lap?) race would be possible, but it would probably mean not having the Sunday morning 6 lapper, or maybe cutting it back to 4 laps.

Would anyone have fuel tank size problems with a 20 lap race?

Lets keep working on it !

Bill

[GMSEXA]

This sounds like a great idea. I run a Audi R8 in the GT series an have a couple of hour races where we have to come in for a 60 sec pit stop and can change tyre's if we require. This mixes things up on the track which can be good and bad (fast cars around slower ones). I think getting a crew member involved would be good, maybe cleaning windows, pressure tyres, which all could be done in a 60 sec stop. The down fall is some cars may get warm sitting, but if they did it back then why couldn't they do it now even if the car was to be turned off. If this happens it should be a great show. Fuel tank size i think most should be ok as they were made to run long races.

[Rod Markland]

These are great comments guys, thanks.

Scheduling a 25 - 30 min (20 lap?) race would be possible, but it would probably mean not having the Sunday morning 6 lapper, or maybe cutting it back to 4 laps.

Would anyone have fuel tank size problems with a 20 lap race?

Lets keep working on it !

Bill

Bill someone rang me from Sandown and sugested that we may have a 5 lap race on Sunday then a top 10 shootout and a 15 to 20 lap race on Sunday afternoon, do you know about this or has the plan changed.

[Bill Cutler]

Jeez Rod, whoever rang you obviously doesn't put the schedule together...

Anyway that's the sort of thing we want to run, given that it is the 50th anniv of the ATCC

Bill

[Fast Eddie]

These are great comments guys, thanks.

Scheduling a 25 - 30 min (20 lap?) race would be possible, but it would probably mean not having the Sunday morning 6 lapper, or maybe cutting it back to 4 laps.

Would anyone have fuel tank size problems with a 20 lap race?

Lets keep working on it !

Bill

Make it 33 laps and we can call it the "Sandown 100"

[Adrian Brady]

Bill, the longer the better.... the BMW 635's were always slow starters. How many laps can you get out of a 110 litre tank? Cheers Adrian.

[Lindsay]

Dont worry about the bloody car, I'll be ready for a cuppa and a lie down after that!

Lindsay

[David Towe]

You'll be right big fella

[GMSEXA]

looks like we will all have to go on a fitness kick. I know i will!!!

[DAVIDH]

This is an excellent idea Bill,

Can I propose the following for consideration to give all competitors a go......

Under 3 ltr group C cars could be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Under 2 ltr group A cars could also be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Group C over 3 ltr to have a 45 sec pit stop.
Group A over 2 ltr to have a 60 sec pit stop.
and just because we can,
the Nissan GTR's and Sierra's should be made to have 2 stops !

Cheers.

[tatey]

This is an excellent idea Bill,

Can I propose the following for consideration to give all competitors a go......

Under 3 ltr group C cars could be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Under 2 ltr group A cars could also be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Group C over 3 ltr to have a 45 sec pit stop.
Group A over 2 ltr to have a 60 sec pit stop.
and just because we can,
the Nissan GTR's and Sierra's should be made to have 2 stops !

Cheers.

Dave fantastic idea totally supported.

[troy stapleton]

Maybe the Mini Cooper S should have a lap or two head start!
ha ha.

[Rod Markland]

This is an excellent idea Bill,

Can I propose the following for consideration to give all competitors a go......

Under 3 ltr group C cars could be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Under 2 ltr group A cars could also be allowed not to have a pit stop.
Group C over 3 ltr to have a 45 sec pit stop.
Group A over 2 ltr to have a 60 sec pit stop.
and just because we can,
the Nissan GTR's and Sierra's should be made to have 2 stops !

Cheers.

David maybe the Nissans can run backwards to give the Holdens a chance

[Coolvet]

Has the format for this Historic Sandown event been finalised yet? What is proposed?

[TONY PALLAS]

All the race formats sound good and it will be nice to do something different.
The sash on the guard is possibly the safest way to go as not everyone has air jacks,most of us don't have pit crews or professional helpers so opening bonnets or removing wheels in a hurry is most unsafe for us as well for our friends on the track at the same time with bonnets flying up and wheels falling off as this happens at the best of times.
Is there any numbers yet of who is attending the meeting
See you all there
Tony Pallas

[Coolvet]

All the race formats sound good and it will be nice to do something different.
The sash on the guard is possibly the safest way to go as not everyone has air jacks,most of us don't have pit crews or professional helpers so opening bonnets or removing wheels in a hurry is most unsafe for us as well for our friends on the track at the same time with bonnets flying up and wheels falling off as this happens at the best of times.
Is there any numbers yet of who is attending the meeting
See you all there
Tony Pallas

Hi Tony,
Where did you read about the formats? Has something been published on this?

[David Towe]

Post no. 1 Carey. Suggestion for pit stop formats only.

[Coolvet]

Post no. 1 Carey. Suggestion for pit stop formats only.

Cheers David. I just wondered if they had made a definitive ruling on the format to be used.

[nkracing]

[the safest pistop would be for the car to come in the driver to get out of the car and get back in that way there can be no mistake made by pit crew




QUOTE=Bill Cutler;1169]Folks, as you know this year is the 50th anniversary of the ATCC, and at Sandown this year we are giving the meeting a definite Touring Car flavour. We are hoping for bumper fields for all the Touring Car grids.

To recreate some of the action of the "Hang Ten" and "Castrol" era, we are throwing around ideas for Grp C/A, such as a compulsory pit stop during one of the races.

The idea would be to have a normal start, then open the pits between say lap 3 and 7 of a 10 lap race.

Each car would need to come into the pits (once) and do one of the following:
a) lift up the car on the air jacks, down again, then go (does everyone have functioning air jack systems, bottles, air lines etc ???)
b) open the bonnet, close it, and go
c) remove a velcro "sash" from a side window
d) any other suggestions...?

I dont think removing wheels etc is a good idea due to time/safety/equipment considerations, but some sort of activity during the "pit stop" would be good.

I would be pleased to get some thoughts

Thanks

Bill[/QUOTE]

[David Towe]

[the safest pistop would be for the car to come in the driver to get out of the car and get back in that way there can be no mistake made by pit crew


Not true Nick! Humans are clever things, they can screw up anything especially doing up belts in a hurry.

[nkracing]

mmmmm all our races in production car have pit stops and maybe take that for granted with all the work the boys do hope it works out what you guys come up with



Not true Nick! Humans are clever things, they can screw up anything especially doing up belts in a hurry.

[Bill Cutler]

Has the format for the Group C&A race been finalised? Are pitstops involved? How many races and how many laps?

As promised folks, here is the format for Historic Sandown Nov 5-6-7

Friday Private Practice, 3 sessions, Grp C/A cars only

Saturday am 15 min Qualifying
Saturday pm 7 lap race

Sunday am 6 lap race
Sunday pm 15 lap race including pit stop (see below)

HISTORIC SANDOWN 2010: GROUP C & A PITSTOP PROCEDURE:

Each car will make one “Compulsory Pit Stop” during the Sunday afternoon 15 lap Feature Race.

The Pit Lane will be opened for this stop after the Leader has completed 5 laps, and will be closed after the Leader has completed 10 laps. The pit lane will be open for the entire race for pit stops made for any other reason.

Each car will be assigned a Pit number, and will stop on the Concrete apron outside their assigned pit.

One Crewmember will apply one sticker to the top RHS of the rear windscreen, and the same person will apply a second sticker to the top RHS of the front windscreen. The car must be stationary during this process. (Stickers will be supplied by VHRR).

The car may then resume the race. The pit lane speed limit of 60km/h will be strictly enforced. (Speeding in the pit lane will result in a drive-through penalty).

At the end of the race, any car without both stickers attached will have a one-minute penalty applied.

This is the safest and most time-efficient way of giving the spectators a taste of the touring car races of the period, and something different for us. Should be fun.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill Cutler]

Hi Guys

The following have entered so far for Historic Sandown.

Entries at the cheaper price close on Mon 4th October - less than 3 weeks - after that date you will not appear in the program, so dont delay and get your entry in !!

Anna Cameron Holden L34 Torana
Craig Bowring Holden VC Commodore
Edward Singleton Holden VH Commodore
John Battersby Cooper S
Norman Mogg Holden VL Walkinshaw
Shaun Tunny Holden Torana A9X
Mike Roddy Jaguar XJS
Carey McMahon Nissan Skyline HR31
John Mina Ford Falcon XD
Carl Muller Ford Capri 3.0S
Bill Magoffin Alfa Romeo GTV 2000
Adrian Allisey Holden Commodore VL Walkingshaw
Bill Cutler BMW M3
Richard Prince Volvo 240T
Tony Pallas Jaguar XJS

[number 98]

Now that we have it runing on all eight we will be racing plus two other sydney cars !!!

[David Towe]

Good idea for the pit stop routine. Can I suggest the front sticker is the first sticker to be applied as then the crew member doing this has less chance of being run over by his own car.
I wish I was going to be there.

[Coolvet]

Good idea for the pit stop routine. Can I suggest the front sticker is the first sticker to be applied as then the crew member doing this has less chance of being run over by his own car.
I wish I was going to be there.

What is your excuse, David??

[David Towe]

Piston broke! Ohh, wait a minute, that's pissed and broke.

[Bill Cutler]

Current entrants list for Sandown as of today 12/10/2010

2 Anna Cameron Holden L34 Torana
4 Edward Singleton Holden VH Commodore
5 John Battersby Cooper S
7 Norman Mogg Holden VL Walkinshaw
8 Craig Bowring Holden VC Commodore
9 R Hatfield Holden Torana L34
10 Mike Roddy Jaguar XJS
16 Justin Nilsson Nissan EXA
17 Dean How Torana L34
18 Carey McMahon Nissan Skyline HR31
20 Lindsay Woollard Holden Torana A9X
21 Stephen Perrott Holden Torana A9X
22 John Mina Ford Falcon XD
30 Ross Donnelley Ford Sierra
33 Don Holland Holden Torana A9X
35 Carl Muller Ford Capri 3.0S
40 Bill Magoffin Alfa Romeo GTV 2000
41 Michael West Holden Commodore
45 Adrian Allisey Holden VL Walkingshaw
46 Bill Cutler BMW M3
47 Neville Butler Ford Escort RS2000
50 Richard Prince Volvo 240T
62 Adrian Brady BMW 635 CSI
72 Anthony Pallas Jaguar XJS
74 Garry Kirwan Commodore VL SS
96 Chris Collins Holden Commodore VC
98 Chad Parrish Ford Falcon

The race numbers shown are what has been allocated for this meeting

[Bill Cutler]

The pitstop procedure again for you all.

HISTORIC SANDOWN 2010: GROUP C & A “COOLDRIVE CHALLENGE”

The purpose of this event is to emulate the excitement of Pit Stops during the Touring Car races at Sandown in the ATCC years.

PITSTOP PROCEDURE:

Each car will make one “Compulsory Pit Stop” during the Sunday afternoon 15 lap Feature Race.

The Pit Lane will be opened for this stop after the Leader has completed 5 laps, and will be closed after the Leader has completed 10 laps. The Starter will display a “P” sign while the Pits are “open”.

The pit lane will be open for the entire race for pit stops made for any other reason.

Each car will be assigned a Pit number, and will stop on the Concrete apron outside their assigned pit.

One Crewmember will apply one sticker to the top RHS of the rear windscreen, and the same person will apply a second sticker to the top RHS of the front windscreen. The car must be stationary during this process. (Stickers will be supplied by VHRR).

The car may then resume the race. The pit lane speed limit of 60km/h will be strictly enforced. (Speeding in the pit lane will result in a drive-through penalty).

At the end of the race, any car without both stickers attached will have a three (3) minute penalty applied.

[Bill Cutler]

Please note, the penalty for NOT completing the Pit Stop in the 15 lap "Cooldrive Challenge" feature race will be three (3) minutes.

This is to ensure that the spectacle of the pit stop is maximised for the event promoter, event sponsors, commentators, spectators, and of course competitors. On advice from the Clerk of Course and others, a one minute penalty was not long enough.

There will be a special drivers briefing about the feature race immediately after the regular drivers briefing on Saturday.

Grp C/A entries now up to 28 cars.

Cheers

Bill

[David Towe]

Please note, the penalty for NOT completing the Pit Stop in the 15 lap "Cooldrive Challenge" feature race will be three (3) minutes.


Good move! I would have been tempted to skip it and cop the 60 secs penalty.

[Coolvet]

Hey Bill, the pitlane speed is set at 60kph. How do those of us without speedometers measure and adhere to that? I would hate to be pinged for speeding when I am doing 65kph because I had to estimate it.

Will there be anyone there with a radar gun on Saturday that can measure our speed and give us feedback?

[shaun]

Hey Bill, the pitlane speed is set at 60kph. How do those of us without speedometers measure and adhere to that? I would hate to be pinged for speeding when I am doing 65kph because I had to estimate it.

Will there be anyone there with a radar gun on Saturday that can measure our speed and give us feedback?

coolvet ,

try this calculater to give you a basic idea of which gear and rpm to use , as long as you know your gear ratio,s will work .
60 kph is equal to 37 mph

http://www.et-studios.com/motorsports/gears/gears.html

cheers shaun .

[Coolvet]

coolvet ,

try this calculater to give you a basic idea of which gear and rpm to use , as long as you know your gear ratio,s will work .
60 kph is equal to 37 mph

http://www.et-studios.com/motorsports/gears/gears.html

cheers shaun .

Hey Shaun, thanks so much! Great tip!

[Bill Cutler]

Here's the paddock map for Sandown - please remember all empty trailers to be parked outside the pit area please

[Coolvet]

Here's the paddock map for Sandown - please remember all empty trailers to be parked outside the pit area please

But tranporters can remain inside?

[Bill Cutler]

youtube highlights of qual & race 1 from my car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5inx6Eo2PM

race 2 and 3 to follow.....

Also - thanks for everyone's support for a fantastic event !!

Bill

[redesp]

Hey Guys,

Great event.. From my vantage point at Dandy rd Corner it all looked (and sounded) good..

but being a Ford fan was suprised to only see 2 in the feild...
(it was almost like a round of the commoddore cup lol:D)

Coolvet.. was there a problem with the skyline? it seemed to romp through the feild and then drop off a bit...

[Fast Eddie]

Also - thanks for everyone's support for a fantastic event !!

Bill

To Bill and all involved in organising the event, particularly the 15 lap "enduro" - thank you. I had a great time, and spoke to plenty of others who thought it was a great format. Something we should keep in mind for the future.

Regards,

Ed

[Coolvet]

Hey Guys,

Great event.. From my vantage point at Dandy rd Corner it all looked (and sounded) good..

but being a Ford fan was suprised to only see 2 in the feild...
(it was almost like a round of the commoddore cup lol:D)

Coolvet.. was there a problem with the skyline? it seemed to romp through the feild and then drop off a bit...

I second Ed's congratulations and thanks to Bill for a fabulous event. Even the weather was brilliant. The 15 lap final was awesome fun!

Yes Dave, we had some good speed in the Skyline there followed by a number of mechanical issues which slowed the car in the final. Nothing too serious though and will be fixed shortly and ready for next year.

[Bill Magoffin]

To Bill and all involved in organising the event, particularly the 15 lap "enduro" - thank you. I had a great time, and spoke to plenty of others who thought it was a great format. Something we should keep in mind for the future.

Regards,

Ed

Second all that, had a great time although turning up with a '76 four banger at Sandown was a bit like taking a pen-knife to a gun fight! At least the action looked the same as the Hang Ten 400, which is the point after all.

Regds

Bill

[GMSEXA]

Congrats to the organisers of the 15 lap final race at the sandown historics. It was great to be part of this event. Not having done much racing i didn't know how i would handle it, but all was good. Even with the front bar that was race taped together due to a turn one inccident in race 2. Does anyone know if there was any penalties for pitlane speeding? I dont know if there is any plans for more longer races in the future but i would but my hand up.

[David Towe]

I think most of us would too. If you look at it from the organisers point of view it makes good sense to give longer races as you lose a lot of time getting cars off and on to the track. If you have longer races you should get more racing laps in throughout the day. The trade off is that you get less events in during the day and therefore the entry fees would need to rise to cover the lower number of categories/competitors or the meeting need to be extended to get the same number of events in during the meeting as they would if they were shorter races. As far as I'm concerned bring on the 50 lap races and charge me more for an entry fee!!:):)

[Fast Eddie]

For what it is worth, each of the three x 7 lap races at the Armor All Bathurst 12 hour shall be roughly equivalent in length to the 15 lap race at Sandown, so for those who appreciate the longer races, you'd better get your entry in!

Regards,

Ed

[David Paterson]

For what it is worth, each of the three x 7 lap races at the Armor All Bathurst 12 hour shall be roughly equivalent in length to the 15 lap race at Sandown, so for those who appreciate the longer races, you'd better get your entry in!

Regards,

Ed

7 laps of Bathurst is 43.7 km, that's a long race. It's equal to 14 laps at Sandown, about 10 laps at Phillip Island, 11 laps at Eastern Creek, 18 laps at Lakeside and 21 laps at Morgan Park!!!

Do like Ed says, get your entry in!!!!

[Bill Cutler]

I think most of us would too. If you look at it from the organisers point of view............

Given the very enthusiastic response from competitors, pit crew, fans, spectators etc etc, I will certainly recommend to the Sandown organising committee that we do a "long" race again next year. I reckon 15-20 laps is reasonable.

We're going to have to watch the pit lane speeds though; the limit was 40, but most were doing 60, and of course Mike Roddy in the Jag did a "magnificent" burnout after his pitstop, nearly collecting the Course Car in the process..... (of course you didn't hear that from me)

Looking forward to Bathurst !!

Bill C

[Fast Eddie]

Some of the action from Sandown. Race 2

http://www.youtube.com/user/FastEddieSR8#p/a/u/0/7fR9jq3kRyI

[Chris Bowden]

Good stuff mate!